Home » Fable TLC » Discussion » General Mod Discussion » xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion)
| xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70175] |
Fri, 28 March 2014 19:27  |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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Goals
Remove completely all manner of gain in any way: experience, items, and gold via quest/script rewards, death drops, or freebies in chests and the like. No experience or alignment change on item use (crunchy chick/tofu, red meat/fish, etc.) No combat multiplier. No general experience.
Rebalance in every aspect: armor ratings, weapon ratings, weaknesses and resistances, weapon augmentations, spells and ability upgrade costs.
Normalize and tweak:
personalization - hair styles, tattoos, and armors will not provide any scariness, attractiveness, agreeableness or alignment modification.
market - No more shop exploit. Make stealing more difficult. Remove all items from shop stocks. Tweak price of various goods.
New content:
Trophies;
Farmable trade goods;
Potions;
Armors and weapons;
Enemies;
Heroes;
More that I can't think of right now.
Reimplementation: This is the real meat of the planned mod.
Market - reimplement items into shop stocks in a balanced manner, the goal in mind being to prevent access to items that would allow players to easily coast through the game. Integrate more items into the "wanted" category to allow a means of making money off of shopkeepers.
Weapons - no free weapons. Iron/steel/yew/oak available in most shops. Obsidian/ebony available in silver key chests, demon doors, quest rewards. Master weapons become unique, must be stolen or killed for, or sparsely available in silver key chests, demon doors, quest rewards. Legendary weapons must be taken off of dead hero-classed enemies.
Armor - no free armor. Clothing "armor" can be purchased in most shops. Lower class armors available for purchase from smiths. Higher tier armors can be obtained through silver key chests, demon doors, quest rewards. Certain specialty armors must be acquired by killing heroes.
Style cards - Not sure yet. I don't see the point of limiting access to style cards and tattoos. Personalizing the hero shouldn't be a reward. I think what I'll do is do away with the card system altogether, and just have barbers and tattooists have all styles available.
Books - Also not sure. I've removed all the books from the game. The only time they're needed is for the book collection quest. I can make the books freely available and nerf the rewards for the quest. I'm also looking into adding books that add various effects. Maybe, book dealer?
Quest changes:
Make minor side quests happen differently, some with changed aspects, some in different areas. Idea being to restrict access to useful items until a more appropriate time.
And more stuff that I can't remember off the top of my head.
How you can help!
I come up with ideas but I'm not a fountain of creativity. If anyone has a thought that might fit into the scope of this mod, by god I'd love to hear it. It's depressing how little input I get on actual thoughts for the mod.
Every now and then I come up with a problem with multiple solutions. I need input on which one is best. For example, right now, the handling of books.
This mod is constantly being worked on and I regularly check these and all other Fable forums several times a day. Best way to contact me: This thread. Leave a post with anything you have on your mind.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fable Formularies / Difficulty Rebalance [message #70176 is a reply to message #70175] |
Fri, 28 March 2014 20:47  |
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Keshire
Messages: 1266
Registered: July 2005
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Administrator
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All of these are quite doable.
Let's go down the list and see what entries need edited:
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Resurrection phials
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OBJECT_FAMILY
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Potions
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CBonusItemDef
OBJECT_FAMILY
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Weapons
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CStockItemDef
CWeaponDef
CObjectAugmentationsDef
Personally, I like how the legends get predefined augments. And if you want augments to take a larger role then you should make slots readily available, but the actual augment ruins harder to find (and remove from purchase).
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Armor - standardize prices and armor ratings, "clothing" will be cheap and weak; chainmail/plate/platinum will be effective against physical attacks but weak against magic; will outfits will be effective against magic but weak against physical. And I'll figure something out for the rest.
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CStockItemDef
CAppearanceModifierDef
ARMOUR (obviously)
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Valuables
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OBJECT_FAMILY (and adding new ones for unique creatures)
You'll have to search through the tng files to remove any that were manually added. (like in boxes, and barrels)
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Enemies
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This will be your tough one.
You'll probably be touching every def linked to the creature itself, and some sub-defs a level deeper.
But mostly the COMBAT_TYPE is the important one.
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Market
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CShopDef
You can really screw up the economy now that we know some of these properties.
Per shop:
Once a multiplier hits a minimum number it becomes wanted. That minimum is adjustable.
Attitude multipliers can be adjusted per attitude type. 
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Quests
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Most of that is CQuestCardDef, I don't remember offhand where the boasting stuff is.
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Skills
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These are pretty well known. Turncoat though might be a bit time consuming since resistances seem to be per creature I think.
| xxNick wrote on Fri, 28 March 2014 21:27 |
Experience
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Mostly CCreatureDef
CHeroExperienceDef (combo multi)
Apathy Cannot Inspire.
Ambivalence cannot lead.
Loved me. Feared me.
Changed me. Killed me.
Anything would be something.
But nothing is worst of all.
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70177 is a reply to message #70176] |
Fri, 28 March 2014 21:17 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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Oh, yea these things are all mostly easy to do, if time consuming. Already diked out the skittle treasures from the tng scripts, I'll have to figure out how to reimplement some stuff like the sword in the stone, it looks to be possible to transplant it into another map. Moving those cameras around is going to be a pain in the ass though. And boasting is done in the script def, which mean testing requires a new profile each cycle, lovely.
The idea is to take advantage of the systems already in place to lengthen a linear game. Two ways to make a game longer, add content and slow progression. Since we can't add quests, the goal is to slow progression but keep it at a playable, enjoyable pace with a steady difficulty curve, as opposed to somewhere between free ride and suffocating on all the treasure you have. The game can also be lengthened by adding various distractions, I have ideas for some of that but that's outside the scope of this discussion.
I just need help finding out where to put that difficulty curve and what pace the progression should be. I don't want the game to be a grind, but I also don't want it to be without challenge. Still, either would be better than where it's at now.
It just boggles my mind, how they can create a game with all these great systems in place, and then not use them. Or not use them enough, or jack the variables such that they can be abused so terribly (shop exploit), or create unbalanced scenarios where the player is effectively invincible and immortal and unstoppable. Makes no sense whatsoever.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70180 is a reply to message #70179] |
Sat, 29 March 2014 12:09 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Keshire wrote on Sat, 29 March 2014 11:46 |
It's enough to make me stomp around the room ranting and shaking my fist at god.
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And so I've met a like-minded individual. Most I come across see games as they are, which is fine, but I see them as they could and should have been. Which is where modding comes in. Then you look at the limitations of modding with this game, and it's not an engine limitation, not a scripting limitation, the engine can handle new quests and the scripts are versatile enough to do a great many things, there are just so many good things that could be done if they hadn't wrapped the whole thing together with glue and duct tape.
With all due respect to Mr. Molyneux, it feels like he used the franchise to further himself up the Microsoft ladder only to bug out with 22Cans when the criticism hit critical mass, meanwhile the franchise gets steered god knows where from folklore and fairy tale fantasies and mother goose theme (which is perfect for a sort of Tim Burton styled game with Danny Elfman doing the music) to kings and rebellions and guns and something called a "crawler" and perhaps the most awful take on steampunk I've ever seen - I don't even know what to say.
But I can rant about it all day or try to fix what I can. The to-do list for fixing is a lot smaller than the itemized and categorized list of things that they screwed up.
As a side-note, I do have to thank them for inspiring stuff like this.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fable Formularies / Difficulty Rebalance [message #70181 is a reply to message #70180] |
Sat, 29 March 2014 18:10 |
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asmcint
Messages: 1360
Registered: April 2010
Location: Behind the beef
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Moderator
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| xxNick wrote on Sat, 29 March 2014 15:09 |
kings and rebellions and guns and something called a "crawler" and perhaps the most awful take on steampunk I've ever seen
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Long-Ass RantHonestly, I liked the revolution. It was nothing like Molyneux had promised, but I'm used to disappointment in that regard.
The guns are, in my opinion, an excellent addition to the Fable franchise, especially since Fable 2 and Fable 3 take place 500 years after the events of TLC. You can't tell me that technological advancement would be mostly stagnant across 500 years.
As for the Crawler... That could've been done so much better. They were clearly aiming for the essence of insanity, something to strike utter terror in your heart, but they fell flat on their asses and skidded for half a mile.
If they wanted to make it truly terrifying, they should've made it unable to be fought by conventional means. Make it to where you have to run away from everything in that God-forsaken hole in the ground. Make every moment have you ready to piss yourself from terror. And then, when you're finally out, meet a world entirely different from what you know. Everyone either dead, dying, or doomed to be one of the two. All the light is gone from the world, and slowly your vision fades to black. Then, a tiny pinprick of light... you open your eyes. There, you see Ben, you see Kalin, and you see Walter, though he's clearly in worse shape than you are.
The usual occurrences from there happen with a slight variance: You don't know what can possibly be done. The only possible course of action is to depose Logan, and build the biggest damn army you can. You hope that it's enough, though somewhere deep down you know it's not.
Finally, the day of the battle arrives. You've done what you could, but it's not enough. Your men have been utterly decimated. Nobody can prepare for the Crawler, after all. Nobody. Finally, when all seems lost, Walter is taken. Possessed. You've no choice but to fight him. There's no way out. This thing has clearly augmented Walter's abilities, and it seems impossible that you can win. Then, something snaps. You see the memories of your adventures, of your rule of Albion, and you rise.
And here is where your choices come into play: If you were good to the people of Albion, your memories will focus most on those you care for. You realize how desperately you wish to protect them. You realize that this thing must be purged. Your anger rises to the bursting point. You explode into a mass of pure light, and channel that light. You pour it into Sir Walter, through the eyes and mouth... At first, nothing happens. Then he explodes, in a radiant beam of light, arcing towards the heavens. The skies crackle with holy lightning, then clear. The darkness is no more, the Crawler defeated.
If you were... less than kind to your subjects, the same happens. Only instead, you remember battles won, power gained, enemies slain. Your fury, your undying lust for power, they consume you. You become a vacuum, a void. The darkness you see before you is nothing like what you have become. It is swallowed by your all-encompassing aura of pure, unrelenting rage. Those afflicted by it are now left as little more than empty sacks of flesh. The skies do not clear. The people do not cheer. There is nothing to cheer for. Though one evil has been vanquished, a much greater one has risen. The people of Albion will soon know true terror.
Yeah, I got carried away with that, but that's how to do it right.
Anywho, back on topic, TLC is a massive clusterfuck held together by Scotch tape and Elmer's. Hope Molyneux(the wide-mouthed, bloviating bastard) has fun trying to find a way to hype incredibly strange concepts that likely won't be played by more than a nearly nonexistent niche market.
Read the site rules, as well as individual thread rules, stickies and announcements, and use search, or you will have smartassy or exasperated ownage rained down upon you by the site's crack team of mods and admins. Also, you can find all you need to get started on modding here.
[Updated on: Sat, 29 March 2014 18:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70182 is a reply to message #70181] |
Sat, 29 March 2014 18:30 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| asmcint wrote on Sat, 29 March 2014 20:10 |
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Perhaps, but perhaps not. The canon goes from the time of the void and the court to the end of Fable: TLC and they're using swords. A lot happened between those two points in time, I'd say probably enough to fill in at least 500 or so years. In games, particularly fantasy games, technology doesn't have to advance at the same rate across the board as it did in our real history. You can have steam-powered airships and submarines put together with wood and ent sap powered by a crystal doohickey, a world where people live in quaint wood cabins and ride ostrich-like birds as if they were horses, but still have space flight and time travel.
Maybe some people like guns in Fable, certainly, and I can't speak for everyone. My view is that guns don't belong in a Fable setting, Hansel didn't kill the witch with a gun after all. But if I can't convince you of that, maybe I could at least get you to concede that the sacrifice of all the other weapon types and the removal of armor as a mechanic put an unfortunate limitation on preference, style and depth of combat.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fable Formularies / Difficulty Rebalance [message #70184 is a reply to message #70175] |
Sat, 29 March 2014 21:55 |
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Swanky_e
Messages: 68
Registered: October 2013
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i think what fable really needs health meters to improve difficulty cuz that would play into your strategy if you can see the enemies health... well maybe i thought of it while playing Dark Souls
Fable would be have a potentially deeper combat system if they had sheilds in the game , but I can see why shields do not really fit in the lore of fable
[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70186 is a reply to message #70184] |
Sat, 29 March 2014 22:13 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Swanky_e wrote on Sat, 29 March 2014 23:55 |
Im currently working on a mod that in theory will try to mend the lack of difficulty in fable
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We can work together on coming up with ideas if you'd like. I'd appreciate a person to bounce ideas off of.
| Swanky_e wrote on Sat, 29 March 2014 23:55 |
i think what fable really needs HEALTH METERS to improve difficulty cuz that would play into your strategy if you can see the enemies health
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I never thought of that, but yes, having a rough idea of how much health an enemy has can definitely be worked into a strategy. Most boss enemies, special encounters, already have health meters off to the side in the HUD, but if someone were to add significant new enemies, such a feature would be useful. And as it happens, it's yet another system that's already in the game and just unused. COverheadDisplayDef. Because it's a CDef, it can be made creature-specific or across the board with all creatures.
| Swanky_e wrote on Sat, 29 March 2014 23:55 |
Fable also really needs SHIELDS! its is really important cuz it adds more STRATEGY! and why is thunder the only npc with a Shield , can we use thunders shield animations for the HERO i have tried an my game crashed but i think it can be done!
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Don't forget Nostro. 
Aye, shields would be a good addition, though the only ways I can see adding shields would make them almost purely cosmetic, like clothing. It would add to the armor rating, but it wouldn't really block attacks.
As for using Thunder's anims, that's clever and doable. However, you're then left with the issue of blocking when not equipped with a shield. "Here, let me just stick my head out to make decapitating me more convenient."  Without a way to toggle the anim with a check to see whether or not a shield is equipped, it's meh.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fable Formularies / Difficulty Rebalance [message #70192 is a reply to message #70186] |
Sun, 30 March 2014 10:18 |
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asmcint
Messages: 1360
Registered: April 2010
Location: Behind the beef
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Moderator
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Honestly, the closest thing to functional shields I've ever thought of was a CAppearanceDef modification to change one-handed weapon animation sets to include shield-style anims for blocking. From there, include separate sets of clothing with various types of shields kinda sewn on to the arm, with these separate sets having slightly higher armor ratings. From there it would pretty much be a matter of, "Please don't use heavy weapons with shield clothing because of reasons".
Read the site rules, as well as individual thread rules, stickies and announcements, and use search, or you will have smartassy or exasperated ownage rained down upon you by the site's crack team of mods and admins. Also, you can find all you need to get started on modding here.
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70195 is a reply to message #70175] |
Sun, 30 March 2014 14:07 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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Shields are a cool mechanic idea but without a practical way to do it proper, with blocking set up right with or without a shield and with proper anims and all that, I'm not interested. Same thing with other very interesting ideas I've seen, like throwing spears and morphing weapons, or augmented clothing. Yes, these might be possible to varying extents, but for the level of work involved to get only a semi-complete and perhaps even user unfriendly results, the effort/reward ratio just doesn't hit an acceptable level.
Back to the topic, I've finished removing all quest rewards in items, gold and renown, and killed all death drops. I've isolated all the cutscenes in which the player receives an item and the lines that need to be removed from each one. But I'm facing the same problem I had with quest rewards and items available in the TNGs, and that's items related to quests.
Blue mushrooms and potion
Treasure clues
Sword in stone (already removed entirely)
Chapel rewards (Skorm's bow and Sentinus)
Rewards for chicken kicking and fishing contests
And some others.
Some I just have to keep in, like the stick at the beginning of the game. You get it again in the prison from a barrel, I've removed that one. You can punch your way to the inventory chest (which also has to stay in) and get the stick back. But I can't remove it from the beginning because hitting that scarecrow with anything other than that stick won't register. And Maze during training, hitting him with anything other than the iron longsword or katana won't count. So some of these things have to remain.
I think I'll just cut out the sidequest stuff and everything that won't break the game on removal and figure out how to reimplement it all later on. But that really stacks weight on the wrong end of that effort/reward ratio I mentioned earlier.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70270 is a reply to message #70267] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 01:19 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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I'm still trying to work out that magical formula, the butter zone for the perfect combat experience. I'm good at math, that's the easy part. Trying to turn combat style, health and weapons, number of enemies, and sensory ability of enemies (being able to smell you sneaking behind a barrel from across the map, for example) into variables that you can plug into a sensible and objective equation and extracting from that equation a single number that determines difficulty is the hard part.
In the meantime. I've created a new bandit type. His appearance cycles all bandit meshes and textures, he blocks all incoming attacks except flourish, his combat is varied but ineffective. I think all those combat sequences I tossed in has his priorities all messed up. He packs an obsidian cleaver and ebony pump crossbow, and I gave him some more back bone, so he's taller than the player. He needs to be nerfed a bit, as is he can barely be attacked, he swings like a lawnmower and a fight with more than one of these guys at a time breaks combat in the other direction. Need to tweak those combat sequences a bit, get him sorted out so he's not running and dodging instead of attacking. After I'm done tweaking him, he'll serve as a base from which I can mass produce tiers 1-5 grunt and archer bandits and replace the ones in the stock game.
Still trying to understand all the ways in which bandits, or any randomly appearing creatures, spawn. Something must determine whether it's going to be wasps, trolls, bandits, hobbes, whatever spawning in that region at that moment. That'll be a key piece in changing how and where certain things happen.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70294 is a reply to message #70175] |
Wed, 09 April 2014 20:54 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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Thinking about rare finite items. In the stock game there are three amethysts, for instance, and there's no reason to sell them because, well by that time you're rich so you hold them like a forgotten trophy. And they're all found. Chest, barrel, digging spot. Thinking about making it so these items have to be farmed. Again amethysts for example, can be gotten off ice trolls with a 10% drop rate. And then motivation, a shopkeeper in Bowerstone North will pay handsomely for these - which works as motivation because in my Fable, you can't just get rich. Would that work?
Also thinking about unimplemented items, like throwing bombs, adrenaline potions, pump action crossbows. Besides tweaking and implementing the unused items, I'm trying to figure out how I can promote their use. I can make it do slightly more damage but I'd like to keep damage/tier balanced with speed, like how greatswords do more damage than longswords but are slower. So, how can I get players to pay extra for an oak pump action crossbow when the regular oak crossbow works just as good?
I'm also wanting to make higher weapon tiers unavailable for purchase. So obsidian/ebony, master and legendary tier weapons must be rewarded to the player somehow. I'm trying to figure out how I can do this and still give the player choice in what they get, so a player who favors the longsword doesn't do a sidequest for a crossbow. Anyone have ideas?
And, last tidbit, thinking about random encounters where one can see other heroes appearing in the world fighting off bandits and stuff on occasion. So you can be walking in the woods full of bandits and maybe get some unexpected help from Thunder. Does that fit, or would players just be preoccupied trying to kill him?
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70316 is a reply to message #70175] |
Sat, 12 April 2014 19:51 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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Having trouble figuring out the hero dolls quest.
The goal is to change the tavern prizes, change the items the teacher wants, and change the item the teachers give.
I've isolated where they're given. Games masters, yes, but in the game.bin. It's in one of those tavern game defs. Thing is, I can't figure out anything else. There's no hero doll quest section anywhere in the scripts. The dolls are never referenced in any cutscene, the JOB doll isn't in any quest reward. I can't find anything that takes away one of each doll in trade for the JOB doll. I also can't find where the bandit camp pass is given instead of a doll during the Twinblade quest - in fact I can't find data referencing the bandit camp pass at all. I can't imagine such a thing being hardcoded, but I can't find anything anywhere else. Any thoughts?
Somewhat related, does anyone know if the dolls quest is properly repeatable in stock Fable?
Edit:
V_HeroDolls is activated from the start in the wld. And so are the quests that handle all the common stuff like boasting and opening chests. Going to just assume that because of this, the quest is also repeatable. That still leaves the problem of where the hell everything else about the quest is handled.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2014 21:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70320 is a reply to message #70316] |
Sun, 13 April 2014 14:25 |
niartyzarC
Messages: 2
Registered: April 2014
Location: USA
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You know, you could probably use the world save before accepting quests with boasts and reload that save each time you need to test your mods for those boasts. Also, I don't know what the pump crossbows look like or how they work, but maybe you could either make their stats somewhere between bows and crossbows and possibly weaken bows and/or strengthen crossbows to help make a meaningfull difference, or maybe you can make them stronger than crossbows, or you could make them as strong as, but slightly faster than, crossbows, but still slower than bows.
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70322 is a reply to message #70321] |
Sun, 13 April 2014 16:54 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| niartyzarC wrote on Sun, 13 April 2014 16:25 |
You know, you could probably use the world save before accepting quests with boasts and reload that save each time you need to test your mods for those boasts.
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Wishful thinking. Boasts are done in the script.bin. Most if not all changes to the script.bin require a new game for the changes to reflect in-game. Boasts won't really be a problem to test - I can't add or remove boasts, only change the cost/reward.
| niartyzarC wrote on Sun, 13 April 2014 16:25 |
Also, I don't know what the pump crossbows look like or how they work, but maybe you could either make their stats somewhere between bows and crossbows and possibly weaken bows and/or strengthen crossbows to help make a meaningfull difference, or maybe you can make them stronger than crossbows, or you could make them as strong as, but slightly faster than, crossbows, but still slower than bows.
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Pump crossbows are like regular crossbows except they have a different mesh and look cooler, but they're mostly the same. I was thinking a touch stronger and a touch slower than crossbows, but having them be faster and maybe a tad weaker would be good too. If I give them a higher DPS, that'd justify paying more for it. Works for me.
| Swanky_e wrote on Sun, 13 April 2014 18:00 |
can you elaborate a bit more on the prototype bandit you made?
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Think six million dollar man. Faster, stronger, harder to knock down, higher health, non-stop sequences using every move available in the bandit repertoire. Nothing fancy, they'll be the same appearance-wise, mostly. There are 10695 different bandit appearance combinations, all I did was make all of them possible with one creature. You'll still be able to determine what class and tier they are by their size and weapon.
The AI is fine, it's the balance that kills difficulty. If you have enough potions, you could take on an entire army of bandits, either by spamming force push chugging will potions or just meleeing them one at a time chugging health potions. But without potions and resurrection phials, taking damage suddenly becomes a problem. You can heal with a spell, but only so much because of limited will. This means players have to employ smarter playing - snipe from afar, spells as enemies advance, melee when they get to you.
Numbers and surroundings are another factor. I can't do a whole lot to universally control surroundings, but numbers are easy. I don't ever want there to be a scenario where there's only a single bandit coming after the player.
And remember that the player won't have easy access to heavy hitting weapons; the equation is changed when you're fighting them with a steel sword instead of the sword of aeons or solus greatsword or skorms bow.
Then take into account resistances and weaknesses. Let's say bandit lieutenants, assassins, bandit grunts resist different types of damage, but are weak to others, and then there's augments to consider. Ever play a TGC? Time to build a deck, flip a coin and hope for a crit.
Then just do the same with hobbes, minions, undead... you know, everything else. And then you've got rebalanced combat.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70330 is a reply to message #70329] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 12:26 |
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Keshire
Messages: 1266
Registered: July 2005
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Administrator
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| Swanky_e wrote on Wed, 16 April 2014 14:22 |
what i meant by elaborate was technical changes you made to Creature defs or what parts you changed like health perimeters or incites into the way you edit characters , describing the million dollar man inst helpful or insightful to me at least. i meditated over your approach to "re balance" fable but i see a critical error you made here , many mods on this site i notice are highly invasive and are not compatible with other mods because they are simply to big in the scope of changes made to fable and are not in consideration of other mods ,the more changes are made the more likely it will crash and require fresh installs, its a common thing that a single mod will aim to remake the game to some extent witch i don't understand, for example Morerunes Fable:new world mod. I guess that was more just my personal opinion but it ties into the critical error i see, It seems like most of the re-balance will be done by making potions,food,ext.. more expensive an making weapons and armor more rare , theirs many problems here first it is very invasive and the FMP will be huge and may have to be slip it into sections or put in a compressed zip , why change prices of potions when you can adjust the how fast and how much they heal you instead it would save alot of time and work better, plus if you stay with a system of expensive potions people can exploit the landlord home system and save up gold until they can by a home and then get rent money or sell and resell using the trophy cheat, then you can still buy the expensive potions. Making weapons more rare is just pointless sure people may stick with it fro a bit but many will get frustrated from having to get 15 silver keys for and obsidian hammer that is not fun and they can just put the weapon they want in their inventory very easily, the way the mod is described you must remake the entire rel-estate/Landlord system or everything else wont work and really if you change that many things you might as well make your own game than to use fable as a template but that's another thread entirely
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Separate those thoughts into paragraphs man.
But more to the point the mods people make are invasive and all encompassing because there are a lot of concepts that require editing defs that are interconnected with a bunch of other defs here and there.
And with the small size of the community stepping on other's toes has never truly been an issue.
Apathy Cannot Inspire.
Ambivalence cannot lead.
Loved me. Feared me.
Changed me. Killed me.
Anything would be something.
But nothing is worst of all.
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70337 is a reply to message #70336] |
Fri, 18 April 2014 00:14 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Swanky_e wrote on Wed, 16 April 2014 14:22 |
what i meant by elaborate was technical changes you made to Creature defs or what parts you changed like health perimeters or incites into the way you edit characters , describing the million dollar man inst helpful or insightful to me at least.
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So you want the technical aspects of the creature editing. Well. I made some new entries and changed them. Don't know what you're looking for man.
| Swanky_e wrote on Wed, 16 April 2014 14:22 |
i meditated over your approach to "re balance" fable but i see a critical error you made here , many mods on this site i notice are highly invasive and are not compatible with other mods because they are simply to big in the scope of changes made to fable and are not in consideration of other mods ,the more changes are made the more likely it will crash and require fresh installs, its a common thing that a single mod will aim to remake the game to some extent witch i don't understand, for example Morerunes Fable:new world mod.
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Right. And I have seen the other large mods and have found them wanting. I can break mine down into individual mods, as what ultimately became of Fable: Harsh, but it is better as a whole. I will be doing my mod proper - it will not cause a crash and will not include items or changes of questionable user friendliness or quality (things that sort of work if used just right).
It will require a new game, by the very nature of the edit, it can only be experienced with a new game: moving around demon doors, quest elements and other things can't be experienced without a new game; changing difficulty wouldn't be right if done half-way through the game.
The idea is to create a new Fable experience. That simply can't be done with post-quest changes.
| Swanky_e wrote on Wed, 16 April 2014 14:22 |
The way the mod is described you must remake the entire rel-estate/Landlord system or everything else wont work sense you can make money slowly but eventually will have enough income threw renting houses to buy many potions. The over utilization of potions is not so much a problem of the abundance an price so much as the way in witch the potion effects stats , potions are to strong they need a bit of hobbe water poured in them,ever play Darksouls? maybe a Estus Flask system could work.As far as RPG combat Darksouls is the new benchmark,ideal,example.
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The idea is to hinder everything about potions. More expensive, limited supply, limited effectiveness. And with limited money, not drowning in it, that is, you might even be encouraged to sell the potions for mad monies as opposed to hold onto and use them.
| Keshire wrote on Wed, 16 April 2014 14:26 |
But more to the point the mods people make are invasive and all encompassing because there are a lot of concepts that require editing defs that are interconnected with a bunch of other defs here and there.
And with the small size of the community stepping on other's toes has never truly been an issue.
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Aye. There are basically two types of mods. You have microtransaction dlc type mods, adding items, weapons, armor, or changing small aspects of one thing. We have a lot of those. And then you have larger mods that edit and add a lot of things, which aren't too common.
Sure, you can't play my mod and Fable: Harsh and TNW and DS and Bare all at the same time. You're not meant to. Those are all completely different mods that all do very different things. But, you know, you can still add a lot of the minor mods to any of those should you feel so inclined.
| Swanky_e wrote on Fri, 18 April 2014 01:31 |
The main point is there are more simple solutions to do this like watering down potion effectiveness and also making the health bar locked at a small amount. Its Just my subjective opinion it might not even work or make any practical sense just my babbling really ,its just that i am obsessed with fables world particularly this aspect.
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That is something that is going to happen. There will be cheap and pricey potions each doing the same thing, but to different degrees. Naturally, the crappy potions will be more common and less expensive, and the good stuff will be more and more rare and more and more expensive and more and more effective.
I'm not quite clear with the beef you have with the goals of my mod though. Is it that you won't be able to use other large-scope mods? Or is it that it is large-scope to begin with? Or does it just not do what you want it to do? Because. You know. You have the same tools I do. You can totally go another direction with a different mod. I strongly encourage you to do so.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70339 is a reply to message #70338] |
Fri, 18 April 2014 02:29 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Swanky_e wrote on Fri, 18 April 2014 04:01 |
no i clearly inquired on a very specific aspect of the bandit you where describing>> "how did you change his his combat exactly did you take out all the defensive moves from combat_sequence_array_count from the def and replaced them with all offensive moves" either you did not read that part or you dont want to tell me how you edited it ,probably the latter in witch case i dont understand the reasons sense the more people understand how mods work the further moding can evolve. If you didn't want to disclose information you could have just said "no i do not want to tell you about that" which if that is the case not that you would admit it i would and don't have any problem with that its ice cool .
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No, I read that part. The exact changes are subject to more changes. I did say I needed to tweak him. That's why the basic idea is the best I can give you. What I can tell you is what I'm editing and with what goal in mind.
| Swanky_e wrote on Fri, 18 April 2014 04:01 |
And your last comment is curious because you made the assumption that my comment/opinion was an attack or some kind of jab to hurt your feelings which could not be further form the truth , I have no "beef" with your mod i am surprised someone would come to that conclusion because i did not write with that intention or meant it that way.
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Absolutely not. Criticism is good in any case. Your post seemed like you had an issue with broad scope mods due to being incompatible with other mods, so that's what I'm replying to. I don't take it as any kind of attack.
An attack, legit attack, would be people on the LH forums saying modding is stupid and gay and that a PC release of Anniversary should not be made because modders will ruin it and PC sucks anyway and boo modders. You know, shit like that.
| Swanky_e wrote on Fri, 18 April 2014 04:01 |
I was just thinking about modding and some ideas you mentioned and just used critical thinking to solve several aspects of the problem to me it is more logical to change the root cause then surrounding branches. I did not say you should do it my way i simply saw major flaws in its theory so i gave an opinion based on critical thinking not emotion, Its clear you do not agree witch what i said i was only sharing my ideas sense that is what you asked for in your description.
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The problem being that broad scope mods are incompatible with each other? That can't be fixed. A lot of stuff is held in global values and you can't have two mods that edit any of the same entries be 100% compatible with each other.
Or some other problem, in which case I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Please don't take this, you know, the wrong way or anything, but it's hard to understand your points. There's a breakdown in communication here, if I don't understand, believe me I'm trying.
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To get all this back on track, here's an update.
I've been stumbling over the scripts, starting over three or four times to get it done right. Transplanting chunks of scripts from one map to another has proven to be insanely difficult. Not just because there's a lot of math involved, but also because I have to make sure everything lands on a place where NPCs, the player, the camera can all be on and navigate in a friendly manner. Can't have a quest-related NPC going full retard because he's on a cell that doesn't have navdata.
I've been going over other ideas for item implementation:
I was looking at the chamber of fate and wondered how they got those paintings up there after certain parts of the game. Quest sections. The quest activates, plays a movie, adds a painting to the dome that persists for the rest of the game. So I can use that to make things appear in places accessible early on, but only after quest progression reaches a certain point.
Also. Statue master script. Initially I thought the statue scripts were stupid. You get some leather armor and a piercing augment right from the start of the game. At first I just removed it, but then I decided to repurpose it. I can make various things appear when entering certain maps at noon or midnight.
I think this, combined with demon doors, silver key chests, and the "time release" method above, can make for some interesting random encounters which in turn can lead to some interesting, and more importantly, well earned loot.
I'm also doing away with the silver key in the dark woods, which frees up the only cutscene available in the game that can be completely customized and called on command. So I'll be sure to utilize that in some way as well.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Fri, 18 April 2014 08:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #70342 is a reply to message #70339] |
Thu, 24 April 2014 05:43 |
xxNick
Messages: 54
Registered: March 2014
Location: San Antonio, TX
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Did a playthrough of the WIP. It was awful, but also a really helpful learning experience. Starting this project over from scrap.
What's become painfully obvious is that the quest-related scripts should be left alone as much as possible. While I was able to get most things I moved around working in another area, such as the archery competition, fisticuffs, bandit toll, sword in the stone, sick child, I was not able to do them properly because of the restrictions placed on map editing. I simply did not have another place to put most of these things.
Sword in stone and archery competition were easy. The smaller aspects of the sick child quest was easy even if it looked horribly wrong. Giving that woman and her brats a place to live elsewhere was quite a pain. Even that worked, but there just wasn't anywhere for me to put the stupid fisticuff guys, and where else could I have put a bandit toll except on a bridge?
Also, interestingly, you can't have all five assassination triggers go simultaneously. Doesn't work. One will go, and then two more stutter in after that. The last two just don't show up. Booo. Another very important thing of interest, removing the demon door walls, doors and faces does NOT remove the teleport. Oops. I'll have to get those too next time. Last one off the top of my head, for some reason having bodyguards in the guild, anywhere in the guild, works just fine except that when the guildmaster teleports to the map table, so do the bodyguards.
In investigating the map scripts, I concluded that one could not, or at the very least should not, have more than two bodyguards. I believe there was originally supposed to be a system to put bodyguards at specific places during specific quests, for example, the arena. I now also believe someone over at LH said fuck that, just make it so they have to dismiss their bodyguards. Because that's what happened. So that means we can do more than two bodyguards proper, which means I'm adding a lot of those guard rejects in.
Worth mentioning that a lot of other things went right as well, but nothing impressive to note.
These things would be so much easier if we could completely edit maps. As it is, changing quest aspects is going to be done almost entirely in the game.bin and script.bin.
Off to remake a mod and hope it isn't awful.
How to make a good Fable game.
And how to make it even better.
[Updated on: Sun, 27 April 2014 03:27] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: xxNick's Fable Rebalanced Mod (Discussion) [message #71823 is a reply to message #70175] |
Tue, 15 June 2021 02:20 |
sharonjjk99
Messages: 20
Registered: May 2021
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If you have doubt with your speed by checking some websites then just click here ptcl speed test and see what's the actual problem with your internet.
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