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Re: Fable TLC HD Remake [message #68863 is a reply to message #68609] Fri, 21 June 2013 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Zyreq is currently offline  Zyreq
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Registered: July 2011
Location: New York City, Great Brit...
Lenop wrote on Sat, 15 June 2013 08:23

Zyreq wrote on Thu, 13 June 2013 14:25

they are going to look into this community to see "Which were the most popular mods" for ideas in DLC.

I made a rant yesterday at ProjectEgo about how our limitations in modding will result in limitations for DLC and made a point that if they were to give us a little support, for either Fable: TLC or this HD re-release, we'd be able to give them a whole lot more material to use for DLC.

Another thing that I hadn't thought of is exactly how they'll do DLC. One of the major problems with updates and DLC with Fable: TLC was that it really wasn't supported in any kind of practical manner. Keshire always wanted an override system, where having a file or a folder somewhere would replace/add only certain binary entries allowing for easier modding.

Falset wrote on Thu, 13 June 2013 18:59

And why do people want it to stick to the original story? Something new and exciting is what I'm looking for.

I won't say that it can't be done, only that it shouldn't be done. Control schemes, maybe. But story? No. If they change the way the game is played, that's one thing. Changing the story means it's not Fable: TLC anymore and could possibly upset more players than please.


Found your rant LenopimeanJohn. Good read.

Lenop

The problem at looking at popular mods for Fable TLC is that the modding capability was very limited and so the mods themselves were very limited. The most they'll be able to take away from the modding community is a wishlist, modding ideas and concepts that we all would have loved to do were we ever truly able.

Before I continue, I'd like to qualify myself here as someone knowing exactly what he's talking about. This is difficult as I generally prefer to be modest and this requires being the opposite of that. I'd feel confident in saying that I know more about Fable: TLC than any ten players, any three modders and any two Lionhead developers. I have run my fingers through every line of script, every variable in each binary, everything, I have spent my teen years learning how to crack formats and my early 20s doing so with this game.

The core of the game is hardcoded. We can't mod gameflow and that ties everything together. The quest scripts and basically everything essential in creating a mod that did more than merely add/modify assets or very minor things through map edits or miniscule changes like weapon damage or changing chest contents were the forbidden fruits hanging just out of reach. I'd like to say that an increasingly few talented individuals were capable of more, but such individuals are all gone now and I'm all that's left.

Some very important things on the modding community wishlist:
- a way to create new cutscenes rather than hijack existing ones, and have a way to call them in the game. Because, technically, we can create new cutscenes, but without a way to make them start it's all just a useless entry in the script.bin.
- a way to effectively edit navdata. This format was never fully understood and the tools to edit it were never really completed. As a result, we couldn't rework the maps, we could only use the existing walking paths on the maps.
- a way to create new maps. The key to this one lies in the STB, which holds the landscape. Almost everything that is ground, water, or flora is held in this archive and the format for it still remains unsolved. If you like invisible landscapes, you can create new maps, but again those maps are limited by the previous point. And no one likes invisible mountains anyway.
- speaking of which, a way to modify the STB. The holy grail, we would be able to truly create beautiful, wonderful, breathtaking worlds if this one could be granted.
- a way to create new quests, and thoroughly modify existing ones. As it is, it's possible to modify this or that with the quests such as the rewards and which maps and regions they start in, in addition to a few minor variables here and there. But the real meat of this one is hardcoded and the level of skill and the amount of time and effort required to do even the smallest things are just mindbogglingly insane. An example is shown here, sadly the author has made the video private but the concept remains.
- Animations. We can create any 3D model, but it will be constrained to the animations that already exist in the game. Without a plugin or suite that would allow us to edit animations (not to mention properly import and export models), only very minor changes to animations can be made to work. Such as this one.
- A million other smaller things that escape my attention at the moment.

If enough truly talented people had the time, patience and inclination, they could continue to push the limits of what is and isn't possible in Fable modding. Sadly the task is too daunting and the reward too small. For example, the amount of effort required to make a completely unique and custom creature, from the model and textures, to the bones and animations, to the behavior and "brain" and "opinion" it has, to it's weapons and attack styles and patterns, it would take days of nothing else. Assuming you already know what all of the unknown variables in the brain and opinion entries are, but then they'd not be called "unknown". And the reward, there's no way to incorporate this creation into the story, no way to make it a real part of the quests, so what's the point?


If they really want to get some help from the modding community, they may want to consider giving a little support to the modding community. With just a little help from them, so much more would be possible and then they'd have a modding community coming up with all kinds of amazing stuff they can use as inspiration for DLC.


Edit: I want to mention that some things are just engine limitations and can't be helped. Mounts, naval battles, swinging bridges, dynamically changing/moving maps and cities, these things just can't work right. But rest assured that it has been thought of and attempted regardless.


No, no word of a lie, never' a lie, seventeen cows I stopped 'em with moi.. one 'and.

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